Wilma Lam,

Host:

Hi and welcome to Optimistic Design, a podcast where we take a practical positive look at the future of design, ethical innovation, and technology. I'm your host, Wilma Lam, Strategy Director here at Substantial.

Today I'm excited to welcome Michelle Lee, Managing Director of IDEO's Play Lab, where she leads an integrated research design and development team to bring engaging and interactive experiences to market. Her Design for Play team builds upon 25 plus years of toy invention connecting with people at a deeper emotional level to captivate delight and empower.

Michelle's career has included multiple research and product design roles at VTech and University Games, which fueled her passion for play, as well as product roles at ThredUp and ShopWell.

Hi, Michelle. Welcome to Optimistic Design.

Michelle Lee:

Hi, Wilma! Thanks for having me.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

Yeah, we're so excited to get a chance to talk to you. Play is such an interesting topic in the world of design.

Michelle Lee:

Yes. No, it's definitely my passion and an area that I'm always happy to talk about.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

So, maybe just to get started, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this and hearing about your role might wonder how do you get into this particular kind of work. How did you get into design, especially in the kind of intersection of play and design?

Michelle Lee:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, growing up, I really loved math, science, and art. I was told that math and science could lead to a dependable job in engineering. And art was probably more of a hobby. And then, it wasn't until my freshman year in college that I took it for IDEO and was really amazed to discover that design was that perfect blend of art, math, and science. But because this was the late 90s, and design wasn't widely recognized yet, I went the safe route.

I ended up majoring in mechanical engineering. I spent my summer internships in aerospace, working on commercial satellites. In the process of doing so, I've just realized that while a lot of people love that career, I just craved a little bit more direct connection with people because satellites are in space, and people just know that their phones are working, but not necessarily why or how, and really wanted something that brought a greater element of joy into the world. So, I swung into a completely opposite direction and entered the toy industry.

Even while I was in the toy industry, I remember that trip to IDEO and my intrigue with design. So, eventually, I went back to grad school and went specifically for product design.

At that time of grad school, one of the quarters, I was a course assistant for Brendan Boyle, who is the founder of the Play Lab. We just really connected. When I went to IDEO after grad school, I finally landed that dream job there. I went there with the intention to broaden beyond toys and to do design in other industries. But between projects, because I knew Brendon and because I had that background in toys, I spent a lot of time hanging out in the Play Lab between projects.

Ultimately, after a few years, I ended up officially transferring over to work alongside Brendan in the Play Lab. My experience having tried so many different areas of consulting but also toys and play, we started looking at, well, how do you start bringing play beyond toys and kids and use it to impact other industries where you think you could actually have a lot of potentials?

Wilma Lam,

Host:

Yeah. So, I'm curious. I mean, there was this kind of period of transformation, where you're switching careers and coming into play and design and then eventually joining the Play Lab. So, I'm curious. As you've grown as a designer, but especially a designer that works with play, who or what has kind of influenced and inspired your approach to design?

Michelle Lee:

Yeah. I mean, if I think all the way back, I spent a lot of time growing up with my grandparents. My grandfather was a real tinker, so I remember being by his table as he took apart watches and then put them back together again. It was just fascinating being witness to that mechanical side.

My grandmother was an amazing seamstress and cook. She really showed me that you could think of these really amazing creations and then make them real with your hands if you actually create them and design them. So, that was kind of the early inspiration.

And then I say like later on in my life, during my senior year of undergrad, I actually met David Kelly at a student-teacher function. He again kind of emphasized design could be a real career path. That really changed my whole trajectory. Because up to that point, I was like, "Oh, I must be an engineer. That's the real job." But he showed me that, no, design could be another direction I could go.

"He helped me value creativity to see it in myself. And to see that creativity in combination with human-centered design is a way to really catalyze positive change in the world."

Wilma Lam,

Host:

No, that's really great. It's always interesting to reflect back on the points in a design career that was really so instrumental in driving the path forward. Could you also talk a little bit more about the mission of IDEOs Play Lab and the team that you lead?

Michelle Lee:

IDEO overall had had a really great culture of play since its foundation when David Kelly started the company with some of his friends. In the Play Lab, we see the value of play and are very purposeful about how we create those conditions for play.

Our team includes some of the non-traditional design fields. We have toy inventors. We have game designers. We have experiential designers. We're all really well trained to understand play behaviors and also game mechanics and have that thirst for taking it to areas where some of those skills aren't traditionally used.

And so, our mission is really to empower the world through play. We believe that it's important to apply play principles across different industries in a way that we can utilize the power of play to spark curiosity, deepen connections, encourage creativity, and help people really find meaning in the world.

In short, lots of people know how to play. IDEO has lots of play. But the Play team, in particular, really is skilled at designing the conditions for purposeful play.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

That makes a lot of sense. It's definitely a very diverse team in terms of background. So, I'm curious a little bit. How would you describe your role as a managing director with that team?

Michelle Lee:

Yeah. I mean, I have the pleasure of kind of being the orchestrator of this really great group of people who come in with many different viewpoints and have different ways of tackling the work that we do on a day-to-day basis with their lens of where do they come from. I mean, we have people with backgrounds in improv, in theatre, in Opera, as well as toy invention, and they all bring their own flavor to what play can be and how it can manifest.

I take part in projects where I can help act as an advisor and help sprinkle some magic throughout and act as that connective thread, really seeing what's happening across projects and surfacing the good that I'm seeing where play is really emerging and being really successful and pulling that from project to project as well as just kind of being that person that is trying to cultivate the talent and bring together this amazing group of people who can do this work and bring this perspective in new ways.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

So, building on this idea of cultivating talent, especially for the kind of team that you lead, what do you think is most important for designers to consider when working at the intersection of design and play?

Michelle Lee:

As kids, we all naturally knew how to play. For some reason, these plays are beneficial to children's growth and development, but we give ourselves less permission to play as we get older.

IDEO understands that play does have benefits even as we age. And rather than being the opposite of work, play can be really beneficial to what we do. And so, rather than saying we're working now, and then we'll play later to relax and have some fun. We rather see them be one and the same because, especially as designers, we can see that play gives us the confidence to tackle challenges to see beyond our assumptions and what we think is a reality to start imagining a different future. I mean, that's all kind of part of that playful mindset.

I feel really fortunate that over time, play has gone from being something that's solely for kids and entertainment and is now part of conversations across IDEO, across clients that we're talking to, across industries. This means things like understanding how we bring learnings from video games where players die repeatedly, but they are still motivated to try again.

How do we take this to challenge us? Like, where people are trying to quit smoking, and where someone might go cigarette-free for a couple of days, then pick up one cigarette and kind of see that as a big enough failure that they want to give up altogether.

Can we bring the resilience on how people kind of just keep persisting in the game world and bring that to something that's really important in someone's life, like trying to improve their health? It's also understanding how we can bring play to education. So, we love partnering with our learning studio and seeing how we can enable kids to roleplay as scientists and engineers so that they're not only learning math and science skills, but they also feel this amazing excitement and exhilaration of what it might be like to fill these roles one day and be part of making new discoveries.

And then, I think one of the other areas I'm really passionate about is how do we bring play to the design for aging because I think play is really critical in all stages of our life, and that too often in designing for aging, the focus moves more towards safety and well-being. Sometimes the whole part about sparking joy and preserving a sense of agency can get lost. So, I'm a big advocate of how we keep play all the way through and kind of hit both ends of the spectrum, from kids to aging adults.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

You've mentioned a few times throughout the conversation the importance of designing for joy. And also, with some of the more complex issues you mentioned, there's also a functionality aspect that needs to be met. Could you talk a little bit more about what you mean when you talk about designing for joy?

Michelle Lee:

I mean, I think one way to think about it is if you imagine like that dusty piece of exercise equipment that's in your attic or off to the side, it's perfectly functional. If you use it, it will take the calories off. But if it's not fun and it doesn't bring you joy, chances are, you're not going to stick with it for very long. It's going to be put to the side. And ultimately, it's not sustainable. And if it's not sustainable, it's not terribly useful for your overall health.

So, designing for joy is how you really appeal to emotional needs and thereby ensure that longer-term engagement. So, counting calories might be a real drag, but learning to cook healthy meals with fresh ingredients could be really fun. I also recognize that not everyone likes to cook, so I think for those, there may be another solution. That's where human-centered design comes in. How do you know your audience? What really brings them joy?

Wilma Lam,

Host:

Speaking of human-centered design, part of that process is this idea of iteration and testing. I'm really curious when it comes to the prototyping and testing piece. How do you understand whether joy is experience? Are there certain things that your team is really looking for as you're engaging with participants?

Michelle Lee:

We run a number of workshops. At the end of a workshop, we ask people to present the concepts that they came up with, but we don't want just a typical PowerPoint presentation. Oftentimes, when it's in that format, the presentation focuses on product features. We want to know more about the human experience. So, we have people perform skits. I know sometimes that's out of people's comfort zones. But in the act of playing and assuming the roles of people who are going to use your products or your experiences, we go a little bit deeper and understand the surrounding interactions and some of the emotions that are involved.

We also know that in doing this, it can be hard to really measure emotional responses. You can tell if someone's engaged. So, how do you read joy through someone's facial expressions, the tone of their voice, their body language, or the choice of words? If you're really tuned in when you're sharing your new creations with other people, you can see if someone's drawn to experience and if it's really resonating. Of course, I think in terms of measurement, we've done some experiments as well. We think it'd be amazing if there was a way to scientifically quantify joy.

Our team has gone as far as working with our data scientists to figure out how do we create a laugh-o-meter to actually detect and measure laughter? Because we think that's a real sign of creativity and something incredible happening.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

That would be amazing. I would be very onboard if a laugh-o-meter or something existed. You talked about the importance of sharing concepts through roleplay and these other mechanisms. I'm also curious. In working with a team that's designing for play, I imagine it's so important that the team itself embraces play in their everyday lives and approach. Are there ways that you and your team actually embed play into the culture of the team and everyday ways of working together?

Michelle Lee:

Yeah, absolutely. I think when people think about work and play, they often go straight to things like foosball tables and happy hours. We, just like everyone else, enjoy a good party. And yeah, I've gotten somewhat good at foosball. But we really take it a step further because we think it should be part of our day-to-day lives as well.

And so, as play experts, one of the things that we think about is emotional transformations. So, that might be things like how might we take a meeting that people expect to be boring and sprinkle some joy into it. Or how might we make events more engaging and interactive so that people actually feel like they are active participants and not just passive attendees? Or how can we create environments where people feel psychologically safe, so they can show up authentically and really take some risks.

One of the members of my team that I really admire, Olivia, she's one of our experiential designers, and she recently ran this cocreation session that she set up as a circus. You walk into this experience, and immediately it strikes the tone of curiosity and wonder. You know that you now push the play, that this is a space we can dream of new experiences and interactions. She used some of the traditional tools like murals and some of these collaborative boards. She put shortcuts in there that whisk you from one-tenth to another. And it just played with this medium in a way that just added so much joy and magic that it showed that even a Zoom call could be pretty warm and magical.

We also mentioned prototyping already, but prototyping is especially strong in the Play Lab, where we've done so much toy invention and where we're really adept at building really scrappy prototypes early and testing ideas without fear of failure. It's something we did as kids. So, if you think about how we would stack blocks, they'd fall over, and we just keep going, we keep going until we build something really incredible. This maker spirit is really important. And so, that's another thing that we really foster on our team, and I think it is part of our sense of play.

"It's been really important for preserving the spirit of the team, especially in the last couple of years. I think a lot of people have been craving more play and seeing how it can show up in our work really hit on what makes us happy in life."

Wilma Lam,

Host:

That's really interesting. I mean, that Mural is like experience sounds absolutely amazing. Things have to be super fun. But you did touch upon kind of the importance over the last few years with everything else going on and still having the sense of play. So, I'm curious to hear a little bit about how the games kind of evolved their practice and culture in more of a virtual environment.

Michelle Lee:

Yeah, so I think our team really has enjoyed experimenting with all these tools. So, how do we just like in real play of how the kids do it, how do we push the boundaries of what Mural, and Figma, and Euro can do? And think about catching people a little bit off guard, so when they come to these meetings, that we set the tone in a way that they know they're not just walking into any other meeting, but that we want them to think differently and to really challenge assumptions and not take reality as we know it today in its face value factors just like how do we actually think beyond that. That's one way is just understanding how we can take what feels very virtual but bring some humanity back that I think a lot of us are craving.

We also, in our physical spaces, used to set up the space. So, there could be a lot of unintended collisions. So, things like having everyone pick up their physical mail in one spot, everyone from the CEO through the newest intern, so they can have these conversations. And so, we've actually been playing about ideas of like, how do we bring recess back and do that in a virtual way. As well as we get back in person a physical way, and then kind of have a hybrid between those two. But how do we set up a situation where we give people space to interact with each other and not specifically, in a task-oriented way, which I think Zoom meetings too often just pinpoint us like, you need to get this done by the end of this 30-minute call. But just give us a chance to play, to talk to each other, to hear what's up, and to cross-pollinate some ideas?

Wilma Lam,

Host:

That's great. It's really interesting just to hear how things have adapted to more of a virtual environment. I think more broadly, I'm also curious. You talked a little bit earlier about how play is now being used to tackle more complex issues, like sustainability, the circular economy, and mental health. Can you share more about how you're now thinking of the role play and these kinds of issues?

Michelle Lee:

"Play has so much potential. It's been underutilized over the years. One of the strengths of play is it's really great at convening people and leveling the playing field, especially in hierarchical environments."

Complex topics like sustainability and mental health really require systemic change. It requires multiple players working together towards a common goal. I think that convening power play is really critical there.

I've also mentioned quite a bit that play is a way for people to see beyond what's existing in a world today and imagine a different future. It gives them permission to dream. So, when we approach challenges with a more playful mindset, it lets us see past regulations and obstacles to give us that space to dream up new solutions. So, that's another key part.

And then, I think play is also just a really great way to redefine failures as opportunities to learn and grow. It creates those conditions for us to make progress without being paralyzed by the need to get it right the first time. It keeps us from getting hung up on perfection.

If we can move beyond that and not have that pressure to be perfect and have the absolute right solution, it enables us to take on test solutions without being frozen in that state of fear and be optimistic about what might come from our work.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

And I imagine some of these complex issues, and they're also national and global issues. So, how does your team think about play in different contexts?

Michelle Lee:

"Yeah. I mean, the good thing about play is it's really universal. We're all born knowing how to play. It's a shared human experience. That way can become an incredibly uniting factor. I think play is actually a wonderful way to bring people together across cultures."

But at the same time, I mean, you can even be in the same culture, but play can manifest in different ways for different people at different times. Play can be independent. It can be social. It can be really loud and boisterous. But it can also be quiet and focused. And so, this is again where we need to bring out a human-centered lens.

And so, as human-centered designers, how do we understand who our audiences are? And then, how do we marry that with being play experts and knowing the different play tools we can employ? Whether it's bringing surprise to moments of celebration, breaking down barriers for moments of collaboration, or diverting people away from the stressful experience for moments of reflection. And just, how do we adjust for those different play moments and figure out what's most applicable and appropriate for a given audience at a given time?

Wilma Lam,

Host:

And so, I'm curious. Having worked, I think across a number of different projects at this point, are there any specific discoveries or learnings about play as a human experience that have been personally impactful for you?

Michelle Lee:

Because we're more practitioners, and we are applying play as we go and learning as we go, I always love when there's scientific evidence that backs the importance of play. And this is where work from people like Dr. Stuart Brown and Patch Adams comes into play.

Dr. Stuart Brown is a psychologist. He also serves on the board for the National Institute of Play. His work has shown that a lack of play can actually be really detrimental to someone's mental health. Meanwhile, Patch Adams, who we know from not only his career but also the movie that was made on his life's work, has really shown how play can have healing powers in medical settings as well.

I think a medical setting is an example of where there typically is a lot of regulation. People don't feel like they have a lot of room to play. And so, to have people really stepping in and showing that it is possible and that it is really effective just helps to really bolster the importance of play and show that it has a role that goes beyond kids and entertainment.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

And then, I'm curious. You're talking about how science has evolved in sort of understanding the impact of play, and you've been in the field for a little while. Can you talk a little bit also about how designing for play sort of evolved since you started working in this space?

Michelle Lee:

I think more and more people are really seeing that play can apply beyond kids. I think for a long time, people have accepted that, yes, play is needed for learning and development. But it kind of stops after we grow up. And now that's changing. People are seeing the value of play for adults, for organizations, and also for some of these larger systemic issues that we already talked about. That playful mindset opens the door for creativity, joy, resilience, and growth. That's the key to really creating more engaging experiences that he can get us all to kind of move together towards better outcomes.

I also like to think about how Brendan Boyle, who I mentioned, is the founder of the Play Lab. He likes to say that players were sleepless a few years ago. So if you think back, there was a time when people just didn't think sleep was important. People bragged about how little sleep they got. And now, we value and understand the importance of sleep that it's a really big part of our health and well-being.

I think, similarly, play is hitting that inflection point where it might have been relegated to being more frivolous in the past. But now we're starting to realize that play is actually essential and important for so many aspects of our lives. And again, this has just become even more clear over the past couple of years with the pandemic.

"People are craving more play and more fun, which leads to more meaning. I think that's part of what we're seeing with the great resignation is that people are leaving their jobs, so it doesn't add to that greater sense of fulfillment and emotional connection. Organizations are scrambling now to understand how to evolve their cultures to attract and retain talent. Play and emotional connection are really key to all of that."

Wilma Lam,

Host:

I mean, that last note is a really interesting one. It's definitely something I've talked about with my team, and we've seen other teams that we've worked with this question of play being a part of self-care. But how do you bring that into a work environment? Is there any advice you would give for teams that are trying to incorporate more of a sense of play into the way that they work and how they engage as a team?

Michelle Lee:

Yes. No, absolutely. I mean, we are getting really intentional about how we introduce play. We will do things even like whenever we start a creative session, we start with a creative warm-up. And that's a belief that you wouldn't go into a race without stretching the muscles at first. And so, just like we stretch our real muscles, we also want to warm up our creative muscles and our imaginations before we dive into any design work. So, this is a way to get ourselves into playful mindsets. It gives us that permission to leave behind the day-to-day constraints so that we can come up with really interesting ideas.

And a key part of this is really recognizing that we're setting aside some of those constraints just temporarily because people freak out. This is where like, oh my gosh, but budget matters, schedule matters. We're only putting them aside temporarily so that we have that space to start dreaming and to think big.

It's understood that some of those early concepts might be borderline ridiculous. Sometimes they defy gravity. Sometimes they bring a lot of laughs because people are just like, "Ooh. It involves talking animals. Where's this going?" I love starting there because I think it's so much easier to start with really wild ideas and figure out how to reinvent them and just start with really safe ideas that have already been done before and figure out how to push them to be more innovative.

I think it's also important to understand the difference between that playful mindset and that ability to think why versus just being flat-out outwardly playful. The playful mindset is important. That's something you bring to any environment. And again, it is a piece that lets us challenge assumptions and make room for unconventional solutions.

A couple of techniques that we use, one of them I talk about, is the magic circle. So, how do we have people intentionally write down thoughts and tasks that might be weighing them down and put those to the side again, just temporarily, to release themselves from those during the concept phase. And then, after you've given your chance to diverge a bit and think widely, can we then bring those constraints back in. They'll come in helpful at that point because that helps us narrow our ideas and bet them and make them come to fruition. Because just like kids who are great at being really creative, sometimes you can't get them out the door in the morning. So, you do need to converge at some point. You do need to put on that adult hat and figure out how to rein in that imagination.

This leads me to another creative warm-up that I love, which is about blasting off to the moon. That involves having people take a much closer eyes and just see themselves in a field. I give them the task of flying to the moon and back. And then we all blast off together. And after they got back, I asked them a few questions to see what their journey was like. It's really interesting because we do this exercise with kids and adults.

For adults, they're often to the moon and back really quickly. Their eyes are open within a minute or two. Kids, I'm pulling them back to Earth and trying to get them to open their eyes again. Because kids are out there doing flips in space, they're exploring the entire galaxy. They're landing on other planets. And while it might take them a little bit longer on this journey, they're so interesting. And there are so many creative twists.

And just going through the simple imagination exercise with a team of clients will help them understand that it's okay to hang ambiguity a little bit longer sometimes. And that bringing back that inner child to let them just think creatively might get them to new places. Because sometimes, the most efficient route of just getting them back as quickly as possible might just stick to what you've done before it gets you to the safe route. So little bit of all, how do we harness it in their child, and then also put back our adult hats when we need to come to the decision making and making it happen.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

That is some amazing advice. I think definitely something that will make my team try out and see how that goes. I think they would really enjoy it. I think kind of building on this topic. I'm sure some individuals that might be listening to this show later, there's probably a lot of interest in understanding more like what the intersection of play and design looks like. So, for anyone that's interested, do you have any recommendations of how to learn more about this topic?

Michelle Lee:

A lot of it is how you can see the world through just new eyes. I get a lot of my inspiration watching my kids, who are now eight and 11, but they take on the world. Again, not really assuming anything has to be the way it is and aren't constantly distracted because they're just like, "Oh, wow. What is that?"

It's new. It's different. It's exciting. They're making connections about, well, how does this tie to this other thing I saw or how can I implement this in a way that is different and gets me to something new. And then they're really eager to share that with each other because it tends to be very social often.

So, that's one way to just kind of help yourself get into that mood. Remember, it was like being a cat and getting into that playful spirit and just seeing what brings you joy. There's definitely a number of books and resources out there, a number of different podcasts, like Playground. I love a lot of the readings by Steven Johnson. He has one book called Wonderland that really looks at how a lot of today's inventions started off through play.

So, for example, we have computers with really great processing power, not because we want to send better, faster emails, it's because of gaming. So, where has entertainment and fun pushed technology and innovation in interesting ways? I think there are just some really great stories there that will be inspiring for anyone who's seeking more about how to play and design intersect.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, we've covered a lot of different topics today about where the Play Lab was, when you started with the Play Lab, but also kind of where it's headed. So, I'm curious. What's top of mind now as you think about the future of play and design? What are you optimistic about?

Michelle Lee:

Yeah. I know there are so many big challenges that we're facing in today's world. I'm really excited that people are now seeing play as a tool they can use to solve these challenges.

Our team is getting invited to more of these conversations because people recognize the power of play. I think sometimes you can get a little bit caught up on how challenging these are and get caught up like, "Oh, how are we going to actually get through the challenges we're facing today. But that's replaying itself. Because moving towards solutions might not be easy. Take sustainability, for example.

The easiest thing for companies to do in addressing sustainability is to keep operating the way they have for years. They don't necessarily want to stop and learn how to manufacture using recycled materials or look for more environmentally responsible sourcing partners. That's not the easy route. And then, if you think about it from the consumer point of view, the easiest thing to do with a product is throw it away after you use it. Figuring out how to get more use out of something or recycling takes a lot of work.

We do it, maybe because we have a fear of the future of our planet and where we're going. But fear only gets us so far. It might catch our attention, but if we want to sustain interest and cooperation, that's where play comes in. That's where we can appeal to people's internal motivations and those emotional needs. Joy is a big motivator for this. It's what gets people excited to take on those complex challenges.

It's also where I really think about the phrase Child's Play and how it's often used to describe something that's really easy. It's such a big misnomer because think back to when you were a child, and I don't know about you all, but I loved to play the game Lava with my brother, which anyone knows to get from point A to point B in a room, you just walk there, but kids playing Lava will do everything they can to not touch the floor. So you're balancing precariously on furniture and jumping from chair to chair.

It's that same spirit that we can take to some of the challenges that are out there today about the great resignation, about mental health, about sustainability. If we can bring that same spirit of play, that same spirit of curiosity and that excitement to tackle complex challenges, and that ability to not be afraid of where we go and to take those risks, that I feel really positive about where we're going, I think play is a key to this. And because more people are embracing it, I'm feeling extremely positive about the future.

Wilma Lam,

Host:

Yeah, that is an incredible note to end on. I'm also feeling very positive now that I've got a chance to talk to you today. So Michelle, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

Michelle Lee:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. This is a blast.

Wilma Lam,

Host: